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Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Sorry to be Frank — Wed, 22 May 2013 00:51:15 -0000

I appreciate a good discussion. To address your points, I don't fancy myself a scholar quite yet but I do prefer to place common sense and practicality before my education, which is not in question here. Scholars have every right to be upset. You're right that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that there's a reasonable amount of tact that you would expect from a reputable politician.

Similar to how it's bad practice for a CEO to smack talk a trade partner or a competitor business, it's not wise for the Vice President of the United States to use strong words (1) in a very diverse audience that is not particularly political in nature and (2) in a celebratory setting. That's my only issue with this whole thing. I don't agree or disagree with his stance on China, but he also did not need to call out an entire country. It's just a thoughtless move to even discuss the performance of another country in such a public fashion and quite honestly, I did not care to hear a political rant on my graduation day.

Finally, if you read carefully, my description is nothing like Zhang's. I'm not trying to translate or justify that Biden's remarks were "racist" or "derogatory" in any way whatsoever. I respect that Biden does not dance around issues and waste people's time. I hate people that do that and I don't think that he should be out there to promote something he does not believe in. Still, there's a time and place for everything. This was a family and friends event, and people were there to celebrate.

Understandably, Biden's job is to be a politician but politics is something that can clearly be very controversial to hear in general and it simply left a bad taste with many graduates and their families. I overheard a few minor arguments about a slew of issues that Biden discussed between families after the commencement ceremony and that's not exactly something to be discussing on such a day. So you can continue to be disappointed in me and Penn, but I'm just relaying what it feels like from this perspective and I have no interest in actually decoding his words.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

wes707 — Wed, 22 May 2013 00:25:09 -0000

Nice rebuttal.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Evan12342 — Wed, 22 May 2013 00:01:43 -0000

Here's Zhang Tianpu's email if anyone wants to challenge him directly: tianpu@wharton.upenn.edu

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Paul Schoe — Tue, 21 May 2013 21:34:51 -0000

Thanks for your extensive description of Biden's speech. As we were not there, it is interesting to read about it. However, as readers of this article, we are only aware of the quotes mentioned over here so we can only react to those.

I remain surprised about how upset scholars (which is what you are now) are with Biden's remarks. To me it sounds that you are still very focused on face, instead of exchange of opinions. In these remarks, I see Biden give an opinion and provide a story about an encounter that he had with your president. His remarks were about a system, not about a race or personality.

As far as the parents are concerned, who, as you correctly mention, often " traveled over 24 hours" to be there, I think that they got exactly what they came for: a justification for their decision to send their children to the US for Study. They heard Biden say: "You cannot think different in a nation where you cannot breathe free; you cannot think different in a nation where you aren’t able to challenge orthodoxy". hearing those words as a parent who has just invested more then a million rmb in the education of my child, I would feel justified. I would think, "Yes Mr. Biden. This is exactly why I sent my child to the US, so they learn to be independent thinkers".

Or is it is so that they, and everybody else, knows that that is why parents send their child to foreign universities, but nobody is allowed to mention it?

If that latter is the case, then I am not just disappointed in Zhang but also in you and also a bit in Penn. Then even though you both are now scholars from an Ivy League university, you still dance around the issues, afraid that somebody mentions the real items that are on the table.

Which is exactly why Biden feels that the US and US scholars don't have to be afraid of China: US Scholars don't have to dance around the table as much as scholars in China have to do (if they want to have a career).

Re: Obama Graduation Speech Sparks Debate In China: What Is Citizenship?

Paul Schoe — Tue, 21 May 2013 09:40:04 -0000

I like the remark from 呼啦啦啦宝宝_佩: "American youth can make the future of their country their personal mission"

I am always surprised by the almost total lack of interest that many Chinese people have in what happens around them. The focus on only things that benefit themselves and their family, may have roots in the cultural revolution during which people were at great risk when they became involved in what happens to others, but at least as important it seems to be that people feel that they 'can make no difference'. Although I heavily disagree with that position, particularly now that the Internet empowers the people so much, it is this idea of "We have no influence" (on the future) that might even be a bigger reason for their apathy for the society around them then the effect that the cultural revolution had on themselves or on their parents.

The challenge is now how to change that. Because without a sense of citizenship, a sense that you have rights AND responsibilities, a sense that you yourself can help your community, your city, your country to move forward, without that; it is almost impossible for any government to develop a society that can prosper, let alone take care of the weak and the old.

Re: Reform on the Horizon — Could the Abuse of Chinese Petitioners Finally End?

Paul Schoe — Tue, 21 May 2013 09:15:39 -0000

this will be very interesting to follow. Interesting that double edged sword effect that you mention. I do still hope for a positive effect. Reducing the risk to become imprisoned is a major step forwards, and I can't believe that petitions that bear good grounds, will have no effect at all. Even though they might not directly effect the rating of a province or a lower level entity, they do at least show to Beijing problem areas and thereby places that deserve interest from 'above'.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Sorry to be Frank — Tue, 21 May 2013 06:28:32 -0000

As a Chinese-American Penn student that was present during last week's commencement, I was not offended by Biden's comments but rather, it was merely uncomfortable to hear in a graduation speech. Biden had an excellent start, appealing to Penn students and humorously explaining his relationship to the school; however, the rest of his speech was a childlike tirade of his political agenda and shenanigans. If you can't talk about politics over dinner, you certainly should not make others feel uncomfortable in a graduation ceremony. After 10 minutes, he was literally spewing mouthfuls of nonsense, empty words and meaningless comparisons to the point where even avid Democrats were rolling their eyes.

Chinese Students' Perspectives
I also have a decent understanding of why the Chinese population at Penn could be offended. Imagine working hard for 2-6 years in school, proudly representing your roots only to hear distasteful words being spoken about your country in a gathering that is supposed to celebrate and praise your accomplishments? And imagine how Chinese parents felt: many traveled over 24 hours and went through airport security several times just to see their kids graduate only to hear Biden, an influential and powerful figure in the political world, insult their country and leaders. Annoyance does not begin to describe what they should and could justifiably feel. Biden is ironically not just any average Joe passing judgment; sadly, this Joe's words can cause countries to do inane things.

Biden's Comments
Those referring to how Biden is racist are rather ignorant. Biden's speech does not hint at signs of aggression towards China or its people, and the difference between "nation" v. "state" is really not the problem here and is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of what is actually offensive and unnecessary. Many Americans are aware that he is loose with words and likely does not even understand the difference enough to intentionally insult anyone. Any comments relevant to China were just cheap pokes from one guy who personally has something to prove, not the feelings of an entire nation. Again, graduation is not the day to be discussing his take on the performance of the new Chinese president and China's economy. The whole political rant was poorly worded and meant to draw attention in a "look what I've done and because of such, here's why we're better even though no one else is comparing" manner. His tactless words do not accurately represent the ideals of the overwhelming majority of Americans. He simply had an opinion, had to share it, barked it at us, and expected us to believe him. Biden could have easily just said that we were better than communist countries as a whole but yet, he singled one out, decided to raise hell and inserted his specific disillusioned opinions at who he well knows is a worthy competitor. All in all, his comments were just low blows and cheap jabs.

Addressing the Audience
1) This has been mentioned a lot but Penn is composed of over 10% international students, a % over double of the average college in the U.S. Penn also has a large Asian population in general (at 20% for undergraduates).
2) Then, there is the fact that Penn has a large educational presence in China, with study abroad ties and research for its 12 schools there.
3) Although Penn is predominately liberal, there are still large Republican Party and Independent Party presences, in combination possibly equal or more than the Democratic Party. I can only chuckle at how non-Democrats felt during the entirety of the speech.
4) Here's where my elitist side kicks in: we are Penn students! We are soon-to-be Ivy League graduates and not your average Joes either. We take what everyone says with a grain of salt and most of us are not prone to fall for simplistic preaching.

Did Biden really think that this was the time to sway people onto his political agendas? Did he even prepare anything beforehand? As someone who is more liberal than conservative, I was nevertheless disgusted with his bold claims and references to his and his party's achievements, some of which were questionable. True or not, this was not the place to be discussing controversial issues.

Summary
I guess what I'm trying to wrap up here is that it has nothing to do with his comments about China. It's more so the fact that he formulated a state of the union address rather than a graduation speech. He picked the wrong time, place, and audience to proclaim his extremely biased opinions on several controversial topics evoked and he should perhaps use more tactful comparisons in the future. In the end, we can also formulate opinions on how awful his speech was, although the dislikes on the YouTube bar really speak for themselves, but an overarching fact was that the majority of his speech was nothing but political ranting on his party's behalf with little worldly guidance or support in relation to graduates' present accomplishments and future endeavors, unless it's for the benefit of the government of course.

Re: After Kidnapping, Chinese Netizens Ask Why Beijing Humors ‘Spoiled Child’ Kim Jong-un

Raymond Chang — Tue, 21 May 2013 04:42:29 -0000

Nice work, Lotus!

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

李侑鋼 Andy Chaisiri — Tue, 21 May 2013 02:18:14 -0000

We do though. Joe being tough on China saves face for the Obama administration. Showing up at charity events, kissing babies, letting Hilary be Secretary of State, all are matters of Face.

It's really not an alien concept man, Face is just 'Esteem', for self and others.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

李侑鋼 Andy Chaisiri — Tue, 21 May 2013 02:15:46 -0000

I just want to sit down with Zhang and ask him a single question. "Why did you go to school in the US, and not mainland China?"

And see how much face he can keep in the answer.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Gabriel Butler — Tue, 21 May 2013 01:26:20 -0000

Very well said.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Jahar — Tue, 21 May 2013 00:19:04 -0000

I think it's arrogant of him to think that the VP should be considering him, in particular, and his oversensitvity, at all.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Jahar — Tue, 21 May 2013 00:16:51 -0000

That's a misinterpretation. The 2 words can be used interchangably most of the time. It's like splitting hairs over the use of great and grand. small and little.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Paul Schoe — Mon, 20 May 2013 22:33:48 -0000

Comments like the one from Zhang are only too common in China. I respect Zhang for the effort that he has done to graduate from Penn University. I am disappointed in him because he shows that he has not been able to get to a level of an open discourse between people. I am disappointed because despite his experience in the US, and that Biden's speech exactly fitted the occasion, Zhang sees that as an act of racism.

Biden spoke in front of a group of US students and graduates, and he has to motivate them in a period where all around them they see that China, a land three times their size in population, has consistent growth figures that makes Americans wonder if they will fall behind. Biden simply stated why he thinks that that is not the case. To see those remarks as racist, is not so much an indication of what Biden said, as that it is an indication of the sense of insecurity of Zhang. An insecurity that despite his academic achievements, he clearly has still not been able to get rid off. I am really disappointed in that.

If Biden had made such remarks about my country, I would have shrugged my shoulders. I would have understood that these remarks were made at a US university, and I would have thought: "We will see who will do the better job in the future". I would be motivated instead of insulted.

Without realizing it, Zhang shows with his reaction how little respect he has for the customs of the country that he is visiting. He is faced inward to himself, instead of outward to his hosts, and by doing that; he inadvertently shows how correct the remarks of Biden were. Applauding Zhang for his academic success, I am deeply disappointed in his lack of self-relativity. It shows how difficult it is even for esteemed universities to undo a focus on face value and change it to a focus towards a free exchange of opinions.

As far as the other remarks in the article are concerned; I love the remark from the Chinese Ren Ren user: “I also want to roast Biden, but the author should perhaps ask the Party to unblock YouTube first.”

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Bruce Rusk — Mon, 20 May 2013 22:25:44 -0000

The official Chinese press in English also uses the word "nation" this way. So this point is really based on a misunderstanding. Here's a typical example from Xinhua: http://news.xinhuanet.com/engl...

Re: Tea Time Chat — An Insider’s View of Chinese Universities

Jim Gottlieb — Mon, 20 May 2013 21:27:01 -0000

True. At most universities I've visited, the professors are reading their notes in a monotone while half the class use their phones and the other half are fully asleep.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Learn Chinese Business — Mon, 20 May 2013 18:27:30 -0000

American politicians will always refer to "the nation" and never to "the state," it makes them sound more patriotic and not like scary Big Government to domestic audiences.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

wes707 — Mon, 20 May 2013 18:15:41 -0000

God, I'm becoming so tired of the Chinese "saving-face" culture. If Zhang doesn't like criticism, then he should have originally stayed in his quasi-fascist nation.

Re: Op-Ed: Here’s a Correct Translation of the ‘Chinese Dream’

Max Roberts — Mon, 20 May 2013 18:02:51 -0000

There is in fact no such thing as a "correct" translation... equivalence between languages is a myth. People always thing translation is like algebra, with both sides of the equation being the same, when in fact it's more like a cover version of a song, where the tune is the same, but the arrangement is unique.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Dave B — Mon, 20 May 2013 11:46:38 -0000

The Chinese students spent four years in an Ivy League university and didn't learn that nation and state are used largely interchangeably in the U.S. What do they think the "United Nations" refers to?

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

lalala — Mon, 20 May 2013 10:52:59 -0000

I don't think he assumes that of other states or their citizens. He simply thinks his own putting value on the concept of face should be better respected?

Then again you can totally say he's in the States so he is obliged go along with American values and there's no place for him to rant about having his and his countrymen's face lost at an American commencement ceremony.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

WeiboWatcher.com — Mon, 20 May 2013 10:44:24 -0000

Zhang presume that other states and their citizens put value on a concept of face.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Xiaoying Zhou — Mon, 20 May 2013 10:43:57 -0000

Thank you so much for your comment! Personally, I don't think Biden meant "minzu" when he used "nation", either, though the fact that "nation" does differ from "state"—at least theoretically—makes Biden's comment very vulnerable to interpretations such as Zhang's.

Re: Vice President Biden Waxes Political During UPenn Commencement Speech, Chinese Students Push Back

Gray Hat — Mon, 20 May 2013 10:09:52 -0000

The student's reaction stems largely from a misunderstanding.

In most Chinese usage, "nation" (minzu) basically equals "race, plus cultural peculiarities". In English usage it contains no racial component, a good deal of "shared history," and fair amount of political tradition. In casual American usage it overlaps with the concept of "state" and often serves to distinguish the Federal state from the state-state. By referring to rights and the degree to which independent thinking is permitted, Biden was finding fault with the Chinese state and perhaps also with an enduring political culture which pre-dates the PRC.

I am no fan of Joe Biden, and I can see grounds for objecting to his remarks, but to interpret them as "in-your-face racism" is an error which illustrates how hard it is to understand the discourse of an unfamiliar society even after one has spent a few years living in it.

Re: Op-Ed: Here’s a Correct Translation of the ‘Chinese Dream’

Exile — Mon, 20 May 2013 00:34:24 -0000

is it really worth discussing the correct translation? Much more important in my view is what is meant and if it fits the expectations and hopes of the majority of the people.